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General Forum => Debate Forum => Topic started by: MAC40 on May 09, 2008, 08:10:49 PM
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Thanks to the Church of Christ, this couple will soon become the parents of some child. Can you say "Mother?" ... "Father?"
And some say biblical doctrine should be left to each individual\'s personal interpretation!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/fashion/weddings/27self.html
MAC40
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This makes me so sick, I want to do some very un-Christian things. It goes against, science, biology, and God. This old world does not deserve to be saved, but we knew that anyway. I wonder why God doesnt\' give up on us, and sometimes I think he has. We deserve that.
Church of Christ my arse. Nothing related to the true meaning of the Bible can approve of this. Nothing.
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?????? I was expecting to see something of mas vulgarity.
GROW UP!
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Why should a Gay couple be deprived of the right to share the love they have for each other with a child?
It\'s the "American Dream" to raise a family, why should we deprive someone of this dream just because they are homosexual?
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Duncan,
You must keep in mind that this website is also a Christian one. Many people here are Christians (including myself) and we believe strongly against gay/lesbian couples. It goes against everything god says.
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That\'s OK. I was just voicing my opinion.
Find somewhere in the bible where it says that truly loving someone of the same sex is against God\'s word? It\'s not there. Jesus himself taught that it is OK to love men and women all the same. Neither God nor Jesus ever stated homosexuality is an abomination.
That was a view that the Church developed on it\'s own.
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That\'s OK. I was just voicing my opinion.
Find somewhere in the bible where it says that truly loving someone of the same sex is against God\'s word? It\'s not there. Jesus himself taught that it is OK to love men and women all the same. Neither God nor Jesus ever stated homosexuality is an abomination.
That was a view that the Church developed on it\'s own.
There is more to homosexuality than love. Love can be free, and can be toward anyone, anywhere. It is the sodomy part of it, the physical acts. That is deplorable.
It goes against re-=creation, which is why God made a man and a woman. The plumbing is too perfect, no need to do the other acts.
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Homosexuality like many believe does not automatically correlate to sodomy.
Anyway, it\'s not homosexuality that God "frowns upon" it\'s sodomy. Sodomy can be a sin conducted by both hetero and homosexuals.
Just because someone is homosexual doesn\'t mean they have committed sodomy. Therefore the Church should have no problem. It is when an act of sodomy happens that the Church has a problem. Since they can not prove an act of sodomy has happened, only a suspicion, they should not frown up homosexuals. Really, if the Church would do that just because the chances of sodomy MAY be higher, then the Church would also frown upon heterosexual men, for they also have a chance of committing sodomy.
The only grounds that Church has to frown upon homosexuality, since the bible nor God ever said anything in depth about it, is sodomy. Using that as a reason to frown upon it is profiling, as straight men can also commit and act of sodomy.
The Church\'s views are based on a suspicion.
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He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
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So let\'s not condemn the just.
Homosexuality is just. It is loving one of your same sex. Is that not just?
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If its different, Its a sin, if its a sin we must hate it, if we hate it we must destroy it. Nice state of egocentricity. Not every one thinks the same nor should they. But out right hate for another human being does not sound Christian to me. Manipulating the bible to read as you interpret it does not change what it says. hatred leads to despair then to desolation followed by the abysmal plains of hell. This is where we shall spend an eternity in darkness being engulfed by flames, as we try to scream not a sound will ever come. Then as we are eternally silenced we truly understand this self inflicted incarceration.
There you go pseudo intellectual inclinations just like the bible.
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Now much plainer does it get:
Leviticus 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
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But does that mean homosexuality is wrong?
It states sodomy is wrong, but does that make homosexuality wrong? One can\'t prove beyond reasonable suspicion that just because one is homosexual, that they will perform an act of sodomy.
If the Church wants to discriminate against someone, it should be sodomites not homosexuals. Homosexuality is the state of loving, or strongly caring for one of the same sex. NOT an abomination. Sodomy is different than homosexuality, that is an act.
Even then, just because one my commit and act of sodomy, should the Church hate them? No. God loves us all, and the famous and almost annoying quote "Hate the sin, love the sinner"
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I am just telling you what God spoke to be printed in the Bible. Take it up with him. Don\'t shoot the messenger.
But how many homosexuals who are monogamous DO NOT have same sex sexual intercourse? I doubt it is even 1%, if the truth is known.
Like I said, I only quote DIRECTLY from the Bible. I didn\'t write it or change it. Gods Word is Gods Word, IMO.
:sucks: Literally, I believe. :eyepop:
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But does that mean homosexuality is wrong?
Refer to the Bible. Its pretty cut and dry.
It states sodomy is wrong, but does that make homosexuality wrong? One can\'t prove beyond reasonable suspicion that just because one is homosexual, that they will perform an act of sodomy.
If you read the quotes Crazy made you will see it speaks of lying together. Lots of things happen when a man and woman lie together. I won\'t go into that. I\'m sure you get the idea.
If the Church wants to discriminate against someone, it should be sodomites not homosexuals. Homosexuality is the state of loving, or strongly caring for one of the same sex. NOT an abomination. Sodomy is different than homosexuality, that is an act.
The Church just holds true to Biblical standards. If the Church didn\'t preach against sin and just told everyone to do whatever they wanted to do it would just be a social club. Nothing wrong with a social club but thats not the purpose of the Church. Sodomy is not the only issue. Its the unnatural lust after one of the same sex and the acting on it.
Even then, just because one my commit and act of sodomy, should the Church hate them? No. God loves us all, and the famous and almost annoying quote "Hate the sin, love the sinner"
No Church I have ever had dealings with hates anyone. All sinners including myself are welcome at my Church. God does love us all. He gave his Son to die on the Cross for us. Thats how much he loved us. He also gave us the Bible to tell us how to live. None of us live up to it. Jesus died to save us from our sins and if we believe in him we are forgiven. This is not a license to sin. We should strive to do the best we can. Homosexuality is not worse than any other sin. Sin is sin. Ultimately God is the final judge not us.
OK, I\'m done. I hope I explained everything so you can understand. Its just not folks trying to be mean or discriminate but its just folks trying to follow the Bible. The BSA takes the same stance by the way. They always have. They believe its not "Morally Straight".
73
Chris
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Hate was a bad word. Let me change that to "dislikes".
Still, the point I am trying to get across is that the bible never said anything about homosexuality. It never said it\'s wrong or right. However, it does speak of sodomy. However homosexuality and sodomy are not the same thing. So why speak out against homosexuality in a religious manner, when really it is OK according to the bible?
There is a difference between sodomy and homosexuality that is not being recognized by the Church. If it was, the Church would be OK with same sex couples, but would frown upon acts of sodomy.
Just because someone performs an act that may be an abomination, doesn\'t mean that the person in any way themselves is an abomination. So why should the Church support suppressing the rights of homosexuals, when there is nothing wrong with homosexuality?
Like I said, the Church can not prove beyond reasonable suspicion that any same sex couple will perform an act of sodomy.
Homosexuality is a condition or feeling one might say. Sodomy is an act.
The Bible is against the act, the Church is against the condition.
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Thanks to the Church of Christ, this couple will soon become the parents of some child. Can you say "Mother?" ... "Father?"
And some say biblical doctrine should be left to each individual\'s personal interpretation!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/fashion/weddings/27self.html
MAC40
Actually that is the United Church of Christ. They are different than the Church of Christ.
73
Chris
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Hate was a bad word. Let me change that to "dislikes".
Still, the point I am trying to get across is that the bible never said anything about homosexuality. It never said it\'s wrong or right. However, it does speak of sodomy. However homosexuality and sodomy are not the same thing. So why speak out against homosexuality in a religious manner, when really it is OK according to the bible?
There is a difference between sodomy and homosexuality that is not being recognized by the Church. If it was, the Church would be OK with same sex couples, but would frown upon acts of sodomy.
Just because someone performs an act that may be an abomination, doesn\'t mean that the person in any way themselves is an abomination. So why should the Church support suppressing the rights of homosexuals, when there is nothing wrong with homosexuality?
Like I said, the Church can not prove beyond reasonable suspicion that any same sex couple will perform an act of sodomy.
Homosexuality is a condition or feeling one might say. Sodomy is an act.
The Bible is against the act, the Church is against the condition.
Its not just a sodomy thing.
Leviticus 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
It talks of lying with another man. This could be any number of things. Not necessarily sodomy. They could just be lying down snuggling up kissing. The lying with a man is referring to homosexuality.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Here the Bible talks about burning lust for another man. This is homosexuality. There is no mention here of sodomy.
Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
This speaks of men having vile affections (Homosexuality) and the women going against nature. Lesbianism is against the Bible as well. Its not all about sodomy.
73
Chris
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So does that mean it is an abomination if you lie with one of your own sex, or if you are homosexual?
What if someone is homosexual but does not have a burning lust? Does that still make them wrong?
How is homosexuality a vile affection?
"I want God\'s gay and lesbian children to know of God\'s unconditional love and acceptance of them as well. We cannot find any condemnation in scripture for committed monogamous same-sex relationships." Rev. Charles Coppinger, Chaplain of the Arizona Legislature in a letter to legislators, sent 2000-NOV-7, announcing that he is a gay male.
"The half-dozen biblical references to homosexuality do not reflect what we understand today about loving relationships. This is an identity, not a sin." The Rev. Dan Johnson of Good Samaritan United Methodist Church in Edina,MN.
Are Bible translators truly free of bias?
The answer is no. They have never been free to translate the Bible as their understanding of the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek dictated. One famous example was the translation of the King James Version of the Bible. The translators were pressured into attacking "witches" where:
bullet The original Hebrew text in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) discussed women who used spoken curses to hurt or kill others.
bullet The original Greek text in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) discussed people who murdered others through the use of poison.
Source (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm)
The bible makes comments based on circumstances, no where does it have a flat out "No, this is wrong". Until that happens, it is unknown what the true message is due to the fact the many translations of it may have changed over time.
Even if the bible did issue a flat out NO, do you think it is still right that the government should suppress the rights of homosexuals? Or that the Church should support suppressing the rights?
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Sodomy is a sin, against God and nature, obviously a mistake, and should be treated as such. I showed you what God had to say about it. Are you a higher authority than God Almighty? I think not. Do what makes you happy, but do not pretend that God approves of it, or that others ought to. Some of us are Christians and try our best to live life according to Gods word. If you are not/do not, then don\'t try to be a Christian. Because you cannot, absolutely cannot, in No way whatsover, be a sodomist and a Christian. Repent why you are still breathing, because each breath might be your last, and we are not guaranteed tomorrow. Don\'t take that chance for a little bit of sin.
God help you, crazy
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I understand perfectly what you claim God said about sodomy.
But what does that mean in terms of homosexuality? Are you 100% okey dokey unless you commit sodomy? Do you think sodomy is the exact same thing as homosexuality? I have stated that homosexuality and sodomy are not the same thing. So why does the Church try and treat them as the exact same?
I think someone could be a sodomist and still be Christian. Does committing an act of sodomy automatically mean you don\'t believe in God or Jesus? Abomination or not, God loves you. Right? Or is it a conditional love?
Lastly, are you suggesting I\'m a sodomist by your final remark?
I hope you are not.
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So does that mean it is an abomination if you lie with one of your own sex, or if you are homosexual?
What if someone is homosexual but does not have a burning lust? Does that still make them wrong?
How is homosexuality a vile affection?
Source (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm)
The bible makes comments based on circumstances, no where does it have a flat out "No, this is wrong". Until that happens, it is unknown what the true message is due to the fact the many translations of it may have changed over time.
Even if the bible did issue a flat out NO, do you think it is still right that the government should suppress the rights of homosexuals? Or that the Church should support suppressing the rights?
Religious intolerance if the real angel of death.
Duncan,
We\'re going to have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. You can find sources on the Internet that will agree with most anything you want to believe in. That doesn\'t make it right in my opinion. The Bible is plain and simple. Read it for yourself. There are several versions on the net if you don\'t have access to one. It doesn\'t matter what the government does or doesn\'t do. They are not the ultimate authority. They can legalize murder if they want to but that will not make it right. The Church should preach what is Biblical. The Church doesn\'t and can\'t suppress anyones rights. No Church is going to send people to someones house and prevent them from sinning. Homosexuals have the right to do whatever they please. That doesn\'t make it right. Adultery is perfectly legal. That doesn\'t make it right. No Church will show up to check and see who people go to bed with. We have free will. As far as your sig and religious tolerance, Religious Tolerance used to mean tolerating all other beliefs. Seems today everyones beliefs are tolerated except Bible believing Christians.
73
Chris
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Seems today everyones beliefs are tolerated except Bible believing Christians.
73
Chris
Multiple AMENS to that! I agree as much as a man can. more than most, I guarantee.
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I disagree. Religious intolerance is the reason for this war in Iraq right now. Is the reason for terrorism in the world.
Trust me, I\'m plenty tolerant of Christian religions.
I just like to debate them, for or against.
Do you think that is religious intolerance?
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I disagree. Religious intolerance is the reason for this war in Iraq right now. Is the reason for terrorism in the world.
Trust me, I\'m plenty tolerant of Christian religions.
I just like to debate them, for or against.
Do you think that is religious intolerance?
I thought Iraq was about Oil. I think you asking questions or debating or whatever you want to call it is fine. I\'m just to old to stay on here tonight and do this anymore. Us old guys got to go to bed. You brought up religious intolerance. I just stated my opinion of it.
73
Chris
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I curious are any of you soldiers of God?
Will any of you destroy (kill) these abominations?
If not then I guess you do not believe what it is that you preach.
Sounds hypocritical to me thall shall not kill, yet it say to destroy the abominations. Also a thought the bible was written by men not by God, so who\'s to say things were not added or omitted. Yet I shall continue to read this interesting story book.
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I curious are any of you soldiers of God?
Will any of you destroy (kill) these abominations?
If not then I guess you do not believe what it is that you preach.
Sounds hypocritical to me thall shall not kill, yet it say to destroy the abominations. Also a thought the bible was written by men not by God, so who\'s to say things were not added or omitted. Yet I shall continue to read this interesting story book.
I don\'t get where you\'re coming from. No one said anything about destroying anything. No one said anything about killing anyone. God is the final judge not us. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. We Christians believe it was given to man to write down by God. Please continue to read the Bible. It can only lead to good things.
73
Chris
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I don\'t get where you\'re coming from. No one said anything about destroying anything. No one said anything about killing anyone. God is the final judge not us. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. We Christians believe it was given to man to write down by God. Please continue to read the Bible. It can only lead to good things.
73
Chris
What I was referring to was a statement about destroying abominations, which basically means kill. Not that it matters as my words will never sway any of you, but i do not wish to. For the same reason i dont hate gays. It would be a boring world if everyone was exactly the same.
As for me reading the bible I have for a long time, as well as other religious and secular writings, However not all are Christan. Maybe I fail to agree with you all because Im not a Christan. I just didnt think that Christians were suppose to hold malice in their harts.
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Religion and gays is a very touchy subject. Im out on that one. Personally gays should be dropped off in Syberia and left there but who am I to say what one does in ones life *shrug*
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Religion and gaysmis a very touchy subject. Im out on that one. Personally gays should be dropped off in Syberia and left there but who am I to say what one does in ones life *shrug*
I\'m with ya on that one. The men anyway, but that makes me a hypocrit, because I was born a lesbian. :tongue-vi:
I\'m glad the ultimate decision is not up to me, really. Because I would be HARSH. The world might be boring, but it would be nice, with very orderly Husband/Wife/Children relationships. I guess that is a dream though.
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What I was referring to was a statement about destroying abominations, which basically means kill. Not that it matters as my words will never sway any of you, but i do not wish to. For the same reason i dont hate gays. It would be a boring world if everyone was exactly the same.
As for me reading the bible I have for a long time, as well as other religious and secular writings, However not all are Christan. Maybe I fail to agree with you all because Im not a Christan. I just didnt think that Christians were suppose to hold malice in their harts.
I don\'t know about everyone else, but I don\'t hate gays. I don\'t hate adulterers either. I don\'t hate anybody. The Bible says not to hate. Its a matter of what God considers right or wrong. God has put all the rules in place for a reason. Some we know why and others we don\'t. Following the rules keeps you out of trouble. Parents set rules for us when we are young. Sometimes we don\'t understand why when we are young but when we get older it becomes evident why. The Bible says love thy neighbor.
73
Chris
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I\'m with ya on that one. The men anyway, but that makes me a hypocrit, because I was born a lesbian.
You crazy Hypocrite you!! :-)
73
Chris
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You crazy Hypocrite you!! :-)
73
Chris
Guilty as charged, send me to an Island full of women. :arf2:
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I don\'t know about everyone else, but I don\'t hate gays. I don\'t hate adulterers either. I don\'t hate anybody. The Bible says not to hate. Its a matter of what God considers right or wrong. God has put all the rules in place for a reason. Some we know why and others we don\'t. Following the rules keeps you out of trouble. Parents set rules for us when we are young. Sometimes we don\'t understand why when we are young but when we get older it becomes evident why. The Bible says love thy neighbor.
73
Chris
Thats good, Im glad to hear you dont hate anyone.
As for rules set by a god thats your perspective (and I respect that).
However I live my life by personal morals and human laws.
I guess its a focus on abstractions rather than spirits, but the same end result.
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Thats good, Im glad to hear you dont hate anyone.
As for rules set by a god thats your perspective (and I respect that).
However I live my life by personal morals and human laws.
I guess its a focus on abstractions rather than spirits, but the same end result.
I appreciate your respect. I respect your right to believe as you like. The only thing about personal morals is that they can be anything someone wants them to be. Someone could say they think its morally ok to steal. Human law changes at the whim of politicians. Gods law is constant and doesn\'t change.
73
Chris
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Thats good, Im glad to hear you dont hate anyone.
As for rules set by a god thats your perspective (and I respect that).
However I live my life by personal morals and human laws.
I guess its a focus on abstractions rather than spirits, but the same end result.
I appreciate your respect. I respect your right to believe as you like. The only thing about personal morals is that they can be anything someone wants them to be. Someone could say they think its morally ok to steal. Human law changes at the whim of politicians. Gods law is constant and doesn\'t change.
73
Chris
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I appreciate your respect. I respect your right to believe as you like. The only thing about personal morals is that they can be anything someone wants them to be. Someone could say they think its morally ok to steal. Human law changes at the whim of politicians. Gods law is constant and doesn\'t change.
73
Chris
Amen to that. God is definitely constant.
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And he is always there right up until the bitter end, right when you realize it\'s all about to be over and you realize what a complete douche bag you have been.
One of the oddest and saddest things I have noticed over the past nearly half of a century is that unless completely incapacitated, all atheists and agnostics call on God as the last second or two of thier life ticks by.
Funny? Not really. True? 100%
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I\'m with ya on that one. The men anyway, but that makes me a hypocrit, because I was born a lesbian. :tongue-vi:
I\'m glad the ultimate decision is not up to me, really. Because I would be HARSH. The world might be boring, but it would be nice, with very orderly Husband/Wife/Children relationships. I guess that is a dream though.
Nothing hypocritical about that. Some lesbians are actually really hot, but guys? Thats just not right at all. Leave it as it may be but lesbians I have no problem with, the hot ones anyways, but as long as they keep their preferences in the closet per say, and out of public view, then so be it.
On a lighter note, gas prices are at 4.39/gal here for regular. Good thing Im boycotting the oil/gas people.
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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
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I curious are any of you soldiers of God?
Will any of you destroy (kill) these abominations?
No, we would not kill.
The bible tells us that we shall not kill others. (shall not murder) that is a sin and it is against the 10 commandments given to Moses by God. God is the one who will judge us when we die, it is up to God to decide whether we are guilty or not. If we were to kill someone (regardless of the fact they are a sinner or not) then we would be sinning ourselves AND breaking one of Gods 10 commandments.
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I appreciate your respect. I respect your right to believe as you like. The only thing about personal morals is that they can be anything someone wants them to be. Someone could say they think its morally ok to steal. Human law changes at the whim of politicians. Gods law is constant and doesn\'t change.
73
Chris
True but you dont have to worry my morals should coincide to your beliefs.
Dont hurt, kill steal, so on and so forth.
Unfortunately not everyone in this world thinks that way.
And laws do change and not always for the better.
You draw quite a few good points.
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No, we would not kill.
The bible tells us that we shall not kill others. (shall not murder) that is a sin and it is against the 10 commandments given to Moses by God. God is the one who will judge us when we die, it is up to God to decide whether we are guilty or not. If we were to kill someone (regardless of the fact they are a sinner or not) then we would be sinning ourselves AND breaking one of Gods 10 commandments.
So true cal, however there have been many through out the history of time that think they are exempt from this. So unfortunately this is not the case with all people of the Christian faith, or any other faith for that mater. There are bad apples in every bunch, im glad to here there are none here.
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26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God\'s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.